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Raikkonen is often faster, Vettel is weaker – Lauda

Raikkonen is often faster, Sebastian is weaker - Lauda

Raikkonen is often faster, Sebastian is weaker – Lauda

Four-time world champion Sebastian Vettel is currently “struggling” in his role as Ferrari’s lead driver.

That is the view of Ferrari legend and current Mercedes team chairman Niki Lauda, as the fabled Maranello team writes off its chances of winning the 2016 title.

“We wanted to win and have a say in the title,” team boss Maurizio Arrivabene said after the Italian grand prix. “We did not make it.

“A few weeks ago we initiated countermeasures and we see the first effects now, but the full effect will be in 2017.

“The atmosphere in the team is good. We know where we want to go. We just need more time,” he added.

Lauda, meanwhile, compares Ferrari’s current situation to when he arrived in the 70s, or before the Michael Schumacher era delivered its meteoric success more recently.

“It seems to me that the old, well-known and fundamental Ferrari problems still exist,” he told Welt am Sonntag newspaper.

“The people at Ferrari are very emotional: if it goes well, they are relaxed and casual, which is bad for continuous success. And if it’s not going well, there is a merciless pressure from the outside and the inside, creating a rush and quick fixes.”

Lauda agrees that German Vettel was initially hailed as a Schumacher-like figure for Ferrari in the wake of the end of the failed Fernando Alonso era.

“Sebastian came as a beacon of hope to Ferrari; a kind of saviour as Michael Schumacher was. At the beginning it worked quite well,” said Lauda, “but at the moment Sebastian is struggling in this role.

“I cannot say exactly why, but we see that Kimi Raikkonen is often faster, which for me means that Sebastian is weaker. He is certainly not in the role that he expects from himself and Ferrari expect of him.

“That needs to change,” Lauda added. “Ferrari needs Vettel as the hope and the anchor for success.”

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53 Comments
  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    yes , i think the driver line up is the best ferrari has had in a long time , Alonso and massa didnt really work because they had different style of driving and with alonso and kimi same senario aswell .

    but i think the car interms of the engine is somewhat there close to the mercs its the rest of it have not devaloped because of the unfortunate circumstances in the team with allison leaving and all .

    I hope next year will be better all though i have my doubts . and the team needs to take bigger risks with the strategy without playing it safe like in singapore which could have earned kimi 3rd .

    Kimi and vettel get along well and dont have in team politics between them which is nice to see at ferrari

  • MetalQuintessence

    Well pretty much, most laymen however just look at news and gossips and view the results from the races and draw the line.

    As for the Ferrari front, it’s actually that they went to push rod this year, last year they tried to do what they could with the front, but they couldn’t do as much as this year’s. Another thing is that Kimi and Vettel’s styles are a bit similar so that helped both drivers and the team.

    I don’t think that any other driver would do any better in their shoes, in fact I would say most would do much worse.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    yes exactly ! you cannot simple compare “data” and decide which driver is better . 2015 raikonen ws way off the pace compared to vettel , 2014 was worse but this year he seems to be in a better grove the vettel . I am a vettel fan but not one who believes he is the greatest and there is no one btr thn him because of his 4 championships like most vetel fans are .

    However i diagree when people compare him to alonso’s performance at ferrari to now , its a different senario which has no base to compare with and even when they compare him to riciardo , the cars were very different that year and every “top driver ” struggled except lewis because he had more speed in the car vettels driving style did not suit the car in 2014 and 2015 he adapted it and he was alot better. likewise with raikonen 2014 car did not suit him at all and 2016 car ferrari has specifically made the front end of the car fit kimi’s driving style better and he is doing good.. theter are many factors to analyse a driver than laptimes and championships i think .

  • MetalQuintessence

    “That needs to change,” Lauda added. “Ferrari needs Vettel as the hope and the anchor for success.”

    Why not let Raikkonen lead them for a change, if he can.
    Anything else seems like marketing ploy. Ferrari needs Vettel, why? They just need a successful driver, and why not two? The better will jut get the 1st place and that’s that, if they decide to give them equal treatment.

    Schumacher was never the need to be, he just was. He went and other than exceptional racing talent, he also had some pretty decent engineering concepts. Maybe you can argue about his set up skills, if you take what Irvine says as true, still, Michael has proven that he definitely always brought some engineering genes with him where ever he went.

    That’s the big difference.

    Lauda also didn’t need to be back in the 70’s, he just was. Tho Lauda’s success with Ferrari is no where near that of what Schumacher along with Brown could achieve.

    But the “need” for a specific driver to lead is pretty stupid concept, it’s counter to what f1 racing is even. If you’re that driver, just go and be.

  • MetalQuintessence

    I agree that Vettel is overrated, but not THAT much.

    Every driver has peaks and bottoms throughout his career, eventho I am not a fan of Vettel, he is no exception to that, as is Raikkonen. The reasons for such changes in performance can be many and different for every driver.

    Many noob experts wrote Raikkonen off as a has been old timer that has overstayed his time, but how about this year? Even Villeneuve gave him a positive response, despite being one of his rough critics.

    But regardless of who the driver is, going forward with blank statements like that and rating the driver’s overall performance based on a couple of seasons is not only retarded, it goes to show that anyone doing this has no basic idea of motorsport.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    The FIA has not banned Mercedes with their engine advantage, for three years so far, so you are not completely correct.

    The FIA pushed for more teams to use Bridgestone and then for standard tires available to all teams of each tire supplier, then one supplier of standard tires to all teams. This process started to weaken the grip that Bridgestone had on the championship with their support of Schumacher. But it took some times as tire supply contracts had been signed. When it happened Schumacher suddenly wasn’t so good.

    If you read what Gary said, these tires were worth maybe 2 seconds a lap compared to the normal tires. That is the difference between winning a race and losing it. So yeah, that was enough to make Schumacher a champion. The tires make such a difference, that even the great driving skills of others could not counter that difference.

    What I notice is that you accuse me of having no proof, then I give you proof, and you just move to another argument. It gets boring.

    Here is the reality, F1 is 80% the car and 20% the driver. Tires, aero, chassis and engine make up that 80%. F1 has standardized the tires, some of the aero and some of the chassis. The engine has also been partially standardized over the years, to bring it back to the driver.

    At the time that Schumacher was winning, he had tires that NO ONE ELSE had. That is like only Lewis Hamilton having the Mercedes engine and EVERYONE ELSE having the Honda engine.

    It is true that most WDC F1 drivers have won with some car advantage. Like the mass damper with Alonso. But they ALSO had to beat their team mate. Schumacher made sure he never had to do that, as it was in his contract that he was #1. He got the best tires, the use of Fiorano, team mates being ordered to pull over, test parts put on his team mate’s car so if they broke that person failed to finish a race. It was like Vettel in the Red Bull. Making the TEAM cause the team mate to be slower, not through driving talent.

    When Schumacher went to Mercedes he met a team mate that was not pushed down by the team. And suddenly Schumacher could not compete, not even slightly. He was destroyed three years in a row. Ross Brawn said publicly that Schumacher had lost NONE of his reflexes or speed. He said that Nico might be one of the very best drivers of all time. Haaaaa, not compared to Lewis.

    When Vettel joined Red Bull he was the chosen son. Everything was focused on Vettel. Like Schumacher at Ferrari. 4 WDC’s later and Ricciardo turns up. But as Ricciardo was Helmut Marko’s guy, Vettel was no longer given preferential treatment. And guess what? Vettel was destroyed over the course of the year.

    So here it is, guys like Alonso and Lewis beat their team mates, and drive fast for their victories. Guys like Schumacher and Vettel make sure that their team mate is pushed down by the team, to win races.

    That is who Schumacher is. Remember this, Schumacher lost his TOTAL POINTS for a season for cheating to win the WDC. He went from P2 to P NOTHING in the championship as the FIA were so furious with his driving attitude.

    So based on the facts that I have learned, Schumacher was not so great. He rigged the game in his favor, rather than being a great driver. I know someone who worked with Eddie Irvine when he was at Ferrari, and he was REGULARLY told to slow down to let Schumacher win races. That is the TRUTH.

    ————-

    If you want to know about Vettel shifting things in his favor inside a team, from an article called “Webber: The stopwatch doesn’t lie.”

    >>

    As early as his Formula BMW days, Vettel has been used to having preferential treatment. In Edd Straw’s interview with Seb’s 2004 team-mate Dominik Jackson, the Brit made no bones about the equal measures of awe and aura surrounding the young German.

    “From a professional point of view, Seb was a tough challenge”, admitted Jackson . “He’s there 100% with effort… Our pre-season test was at Hockenheim and I was consistently faster than Seb. Before leaving I recorded my engine and chassis numbers, and when we arrived at the first round two weeks later they had swapped our chassis!… At the European Grand Prix support race I got pole and Seb was so pissed off that he ignored the chequered flag and tried again. He got a fine (but) when I got back to the paddock, pretty much the whole team stopped talking to me… I got on pole, yet there is a negative vibe”.

    Strange then that it comes as a surprise that a driver who is nurtured to the point of benediction would benefit massively from an already formidable platform of talent. The same conclusion, mutatis mutandis can be reached with Webber. The more you are made to feel like the number two driver, you will eventually start assuming some of those characteristics. Mark knows full well that should his team-mate strike mechanical trouble, he will be given every opportunity to make up that ground. When the opposite occurs it’s: “sorry Mark, the driver with the most points gets preference”.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    im no expert in F1 , but you mean to tell me shumacher won 5 titles mainly because he had an advantage over tires and the FIA did not notice this at all . FIA bans anything that gains an “unfair advantage ” over the rest . it does make somewhat sense that ferrari and bridgestone had a “special” relationship . but i dont think you can just point at just the tires alone and say , thats why shumacher dominated.

    if you think about it atleast all the championship winners had some advantage over the other , like jenson and the double difuser at brawn , now lewis with the mercedes engine alonso with the mass damper at renault. I think there is more to it than just a part of the car , the driver skill on how they used it comes to play aswell .

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Google this about Schumacher and Fiorano:

    “Atlas F1 The Loneliness of a Long-Distance Driver”

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    I guess that you don’t know much about F1.

    Just to show you that I have PROOF, here is something about Schumacher and the tires.

    You can find this on the BBC F1 website. Google “Bahrain GP 2012: Gary Anderson on Kimi Raikkonen’s display”

    Here is the relevant text. And please don’t say “who is Gary Anderson?”

    “It was also interesting to hear Mercedes’ Michael Schumacher complain about the Pirelli tyres. He is a professional racing driver, and it’s all about looking after your tyres. You do that by getting the right balance on the car. When I was involved with Bridgestone tyres with Jordan in the early 2000s, in the middle of the tyre war with Michelin, Schumacher and Ferrari had tyres we were not even allowed to look at. They cost so much money that Bridgestone could not afford to supply them to everyone. And whenever we did have an opportunity to run a derivative of those tyres, our lap times were much, much better. It’s a bit sad that Michael now sees things the other way around, because a lot of his competitiveness in those days was down to the working relationship he and Ferrari had with Bridgestone, one to which nobody else had access.”

    About Alonso, if he went from 11th to 3rd with Vettel and Hamilton ahead of him, it still would have been an amazing race from him. I was impressed with his driving talent, not his finishing place. So what you said about Vettel and Lewis is not relevant.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    what proof do you have that micheal was having unfair advantage in testing , tires and stuff . you are simply making stuff up to make alonoso look great , and greatest drive by alonso , Valencia 2012 . he won because vettel had a DNF when the alternater failed . and it was obvious he was going to win that day because he was almost 2 seconds quicker than the guy behind . so basically the best drive you say you think alonso showed was one which was gifted to him because vettel had a DNF and lewis was out because of maldanado . *slow applause*

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Here are some facts from me, about Alonso being a bad businessman. From IBTimes in 2015:

    A list of the top 10 richest F1 drivers of all time:

    Schumacher at No 1 with an estimated net worth of $780m (£528m, €740m).

    Fernando Alonso is the second on the list with an estimated fortune of $220m, followed by Finnish Ferrari driver Kimi Raikkonen at $180m.

    Reigning world champion Lewis Hamilton came fifth with a personal fortune of $110m.

    Now I know it is a year old, but seriously, Alonso is the second richest F1 driver of ALL TIME. And you say he is a bad businessmen. You must be CRAZY!!!

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Yeah because i see facts in this comment: “Alonso is too much of a bitch and a bad businessman to ever become world champ ever again.”

    What happens is that you post opinions without facts to support them, your mind tells you that your opinions are facts, I prove that they are wrong and you call that me brushing them under the table. It is a joke that you think you are posting facts when you have no proof.

    So how about this, explain to me how you KNOW that “Alonso is too much of a bitch and a bad businessman.” I won’t bother to argue that these things have nothing to do with being a world champion, as that is another story. But PLEASE just give me the PROOF to your comment.

  • Daniel Bate

    I think I’m done communicating to you. Any valid point I make that you can’t hit me with facts about you brush under the table. Lets get real. Alonso is too much of a bitch and a bad businessman to ever become world champ ever again. Get over it.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    I wanted to read this then I got to “Alonso has great race craft and speed… To say he is BETTER than Massa ,Kimi ,Hamilton or vettel is pureley your opinion not a FACT.”

    At Ferrari in the SAME TEAM Alonso destroyed Kimi and Massa. His POINTS SCORE was huge compared to them. That is what I am basing my points on. I don’t think you understand MATHEMATICS if you are stumped by that.

    The rest is just noise. I didn’t have the energy to read it. Not ONE FACT. Just noise. Please tell me the points that Ricciardo scored against Vettel in the same car in the same team? Tell me how many points Kimi and Massa scored compared to Alonso IN THE SAME TEAM? Tell me how many points and wins Lewis has compared to Nico in 4 years together in THE SAME TEAM? When you can do those calculations come back to me. But the rest is just noise.

    I glanced through what you said and read this “I support vettel for his character , humility”. OMG you must be on drugs. He is the driver who has insulted other drivers over the radio and in the pits more than any other driver. Cucumber is a great example. He lies all the time, like in Spa with “I was ahead.” If you don’t look at the video then yes he was ahead. He is nothing like you describe him. Not only can’t you count, but you don’t know someone’s character. The humble finger of number one stuck in the camera, when it was his car making him #1? Humility? Haaaa.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Rory Byrne made Benneton from the technical side. Along with some others on the aero side. Same team went to Ferrari BEFORE Brawn got there. Schumacher left Ferrari and Kimi did fine with that car. My brother worked in F1 for almost 30 years, and he was with Schumacher at Benetton, and Ferrari. I have spent time in the pits with Schumacher on several occasions.

    The guy was great, but he also made sure he had an unfair advantage wherever possible. Against his team mate and against other teams. Cheating was not an option, it was part of the game. Illegal traction control, Bridgestone tires, Fiorano testing, all that his team mates never got. He was a great driver, but he had a lot of benefits. Once the Bridgestone tire advantage was gone then Alonso beat him easily two years in a row. It wasn’t all Schumacher.

    If you think that Alonso wasn’t treated badly at McLaren in terms of them stopping him beating Lewis on track, then you missed a WHOLE lot of details. Like Ron Dennis saying about Lewis, “We are racing Alonso.” Think about that.

    I think that Alonso and Lewis are about the same talent. They can get the maximum from the car. I don’t subscribe to the story “Alonso was beaten by a rookie.” Alonso was equal on points with Lewis after (a well practiced driver) got a LOT of help from the team.

    When you see what Alonso did at Ferrari in a car that was regularly qualifying in P5 then you know he is a great driver. Like Lewis, he can start P5 or P6 and win. Vettel never won from beyond P3. For me Alonso’s best drive was Valencia 2012, 11th to 1st.

    Google this “wtf1 fernando alonso best drives What Is Fernando Alonso’s Greatest Drive?” And read the comments field. You will get a sense of why I believe Alonso is one of the greatest.

    Google “Youtube F1 2006 – Hungary Alonso Onboard Laps” and watch Alonso pass so many top drivers, including Schumacher, in the wet. Where the driver matters more than the car. It was a master class.

    Google “F1 Classic Onboard: Alonso Hunts Down Schumacher in Hungary” to see the battle that Alonso won. Against Schumacher at his prime, in a Ferrari that Massa qualified in P2, when the Renault of Fisichella only qualified in P8. (Schumacher and Alonso had issues in qualifying.) So all down to driver talent, Alonso smashed Schumacher.

  • Daniel Bate

    Who made benneton in 1994 and 95? And comparing a 43 year old Schumi to Rosberg isn’t fair and I doubt we will see a 43 Alonso or Hamilton keeping the latest young gun honest. In his day Schumi was by far the ultimate racer even to a point of being dirty. You can’t say that because Lewis tested the car and raced GP2 he was better prepared than Alonso. racing drivers learn their race craft in Karting and just refine as they progress through the ranks but F1 is a whole different story and in my opinion Alonso should have done better and that’s plants the seed of doubt in my mind but no doubt McLaren wasn’t fair to Alonso. My old man worked in F1 from the late 80’s to early 00’s and as much as I didn’t like the man, Schumi was in a different league – Spain 1996 – No Bridgestone tyres, no illegal tc just a masterclass. A bit like Senna at Brands in 1993. I got the amazing opportunities as a kid in the pit garages on race day and he had something special.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    dude seriousley ,let it go , we get it you are an alonso fan and refuse to look at anything els other than points and so called “facts” which are just stories fabricated to defend alonso , just because some one in the media wrote it does not make them “facts” .

    You cannot simply analyse a driver on numbers and say oh he was better than the other . Racing is bigger than that . Alonso is a great driver but he is not the best , i do not think such a thing exists because it is very subjective .

    Alonso has great race craft and speed , as a character he is very contrevesial and you either love him for it or loathe him for it. To say he is BETTER than Massa ,Kimi ,Hamilton or vettel is pureley your opinion not a FACT .

    To say he was better at ferrari is also an opinion As @disqus_TuvltUpKF9:disqus says , alonso was more concerned about the car suiting his driving style , which he thought would result in wins and ultimatley championships rather than working together with the TEAM (which includes his team mate) to come up with a better solution . when things did not go his way he would criticize and would not appologize when he did something wrong .

    You keep comparing him to vettel at ferrari , the FACT is when he was at ferrari the car was alot closer to the redbull in comparison to what the car is today with the mercedes . And even though ferrari had improved the engine for this season and it is alot closer than last year , does not mean that alone is capable of winning . The aero is simply not there , team had messed up the strategy more than in one ocation for vettel when he had the chance for a win in austrailia , spain and canada .

    Also the team is not stable and is the structure has been weak since James allison left and machione preasuring the team to deliver results. These problems were not there in Alonso’s time at ferrari . team was more stable and was stronger.

    If you want to compare , when alonso joined ferrari he joined to win championships and did not expect to be patient and build the team to give him results. ofc he played a major role in the team and alot of hardwork went in , specially in 2012 .

    however when vettel came , he came in to rebuild a broken team and return it back to the glory days , he came in without any expectations of winning a championship in 2015 . and with a weaker car he still managed to perform and win 3 races when mercedes had problems.

    And as per vettel saying he will not stay at ferrari until the end of career , i checked that and in the article he says “Why, do you think of me as old?” “I haven’t thought about it because it’s too far away. My biggest challenge is to win with Ferrari, and it takes all of my heart and energy.”

    That does not mean he will leave ferrari like next year or something . and why should he commit his entire career just at ferrari , he is still relativeley young , he does not have a life line in F1 unlike alonso. he came to ferrari because it is his dream to race for them and to emulate his hero , schumacher . which means he is in it for the long run .

    You cannot compare Alonso to vettel ecause its 2 different senario’s and different era’s different team (under arivabene’s hands , not dominicali’s) and most of all the car’s performance gap is different to the car to beat .

    You can say vettel is a “lucky champion” he won because redbull prefered him over webber , his torro rosso win is nothing significant because it had the same chassis as the redbull at the time, to me sounds like you jst dont like vettel and refuse to see anyone else’s accomplishments for what it is rather than comparing it to alonso .

    I am a vettel fan , but i wont say he is the best in the grid or he is better than X,Y or Z . i have my reasons for supporting vettel and it is not for his championships or his race wins . I support vettel for his character , humility and his talent and also because in my opinion he is the driver in the current grid who had devaloped through the high preasure of F1 , the politics and had not changed because of fame and sucess .that is not a fact just my own opinion.
    I adimire other racing drivers like alonso , kimi ,massa and hamilton and everyone has their strenths and weaknesses , which is why i believe there is no such thing as a better driver of all time just better at that given moment in time .

    just enjoy the sport and admire each driver for what they have to offer and judge based on that. its people like you who ruin the sport

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Actually Brawn and Schumacher didn’t make Ferrari. Jean Todt did. The Bridgestone tires did. Schumacher having unlimited testing at Fiorano did. Not Schumacher. That is why Schumacher did nothing when he didn’t have his precious Bridgestone tire advantage, or his Benetton illegal traction control system.

    Alonso was hindered against Lewis by the team. For example they changed his tire pressures before one qualifying session and Alonso was sure he was P1, but was actually 1 second slower. The team said it was a mistake, but after lots of these mistakes Alonso went to Ron and said to stop them or he would tell the FIA about McLaren stealing Ferrari secrets. We know how that ended.

    Remember Ron saying “We are racing Alonso.” So biased against Alonso.

    Also Lewis spent all of the previous year testing for McLaren, including the car that he and Alonso would race in. That was estimated to be around 11,000 km of testing (I read that somewhere but don’t quote me on it, I could be wrong). Alonso did not get into the car until the start of the new year, due to having to wait for his Renault contract to expire. So Lewis had a lot of time in the car above Alonso. Lewis learned racing from GP2 so he didn’t need race craft. He just needed to know the car, which he did.

    On balance, taking out the games that McLaren played, Alonso would have beaten Lewis. Be aware that I am a huge Lewis fan, as well as an Alonso fan. But I also know the facts.

    As for Alonso and the mass damper, yes that was why Alonso won those two WDC’s. As soon as the stranglehold of Ferrari and Schumacher was broken, the FIA deemed the mass damper illegal, to even things up again. They called it a movable aerodynamic part, despite it being inside the car.

    That is how F1 is. The driver that wins isn’t always the best driver. But if you think about it, see how drivers do in the SAME car, you can work it out. Alonso killed Massa and Kimi. They are about the same as Vettel based on Kimi this year. Schumacher got destroyed by Nico, who is clearly worse that Lewis. And Lewis and Alonso are about the same. Ricciardo is better than Vettel, which puts him close to Alonso and Lewis. Max is up there with Ricciardo, so maybe as good as Alonso and Lewis. But time will tell if Dan or Max end up in a team with Lewis or Alonso to get a better idea.

    So top tier drivers, Alonso, Lewis, Max and Dan.

    Medium tier drivers, Kimi, Massa, Schumacher, Vettel.

    That’s how I see it. The WDC’s are NOT a valid indicator of the best driver. The car makes up about 80% of the lap time, and the driver the other 20%. But WDC’s are based on the car and driver, not the driver alone. So anyone who says “But Vettel is a 4xWDC” or “But Schumacher is a 7xWDC” has no idea about F1.

  • Daniel Bate

    Lets be honest, there are only two people who were able to make Ferrari seem better than they are – Brawn & Schumacher – Before and after Ferrari are nothing and won’t be for a long long time. As for Alonso, yes to me he is one of the best but you could say he only won his WDC because of that damper in the front of the Renault. In 2007 Hamilton did smoke Alonso and I say that in regards to their experience – Hamilton had very little and Alonso had 6 years or so in F1 yet Hamilton showed Alonso up purely due to the fact he kept him honest. Alonso should have done Hamilton easily and nobody would have knocked Spammo. Schumacher was the best, he knew how to work with a team and its staff to extract the best. That’s why Benneton went bad after he left and Ferrari too.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Those are not facts. They are apples and oranges. I read that Alonso was at the race track in Monza before Vettel and Kimi, so on that basis he BEAT them. Fact. Oh, you mean beat in the same car over a season? I thought you meant who walked through the gates first.

    You are a nut case. You twisted the whole discussion around to something that isn’t relevant, to avoid all of the facts that ARE relevant. It’s a classic troll avoidance technique.

  • Carl Smith

    2005 deserved to be Kimi’s Title. He was also better than Alonso there. But numerous reliability problems, ultimately lost him that title.

  • Mohammed Nayeem

    so now u dont like facts,,!! someitme earlier you were hell bent on facts which were based on ill assumed thoughts… HAHA…. this is the exact reason i dont like having arguments with blindfolded die hard fans…

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Yeah, let’s compare Alonso in a 2016 McLaren to Kimi and Massa in a 2016 Ferrari and Williams! You could not have used a more blatant “fact” to prove that you have no idea about F1. I was talking about when Alonso was IN THE SAME TEAM as Massa. And when Massa was in the same team as Kimi. If you can’t get that then you don’t know anything about F1.

  • Mohammed Nayeem

    see, ur the best at delusional talking and mudslinging.. and the reason u dont understand things is you cant have a debate or a constructive discussion because u cant keep from arguing and foul mouthing.. so any proper discussion is like rambling to u.. if its facts important to you, then a cry baby finished 14th in the last race and had also finished behind his team mate.. so much for race craft.. Massa finished 9th, Kimi finished 4th. if you see the standings then Alonso is behind Massa and Kimi.. so the facts tell truth, I got it…

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Yes you are right, it was Massa leaving the refueling rig in the car as he drove off, not the team. It was Massa causing Crash Gate that got him from P1 to out of the points. Haaaaa. Any more jokes while we are here? You can’t make this BS up! But you do!!!

    I’m not a blind Alonso fan. I am a fan of the truth. He beat Kimi and Massa resoundingly and they have been around equal in the car. And Kimi is about as good as Vettel. It is easy to work out that Alonso is a lot better than Vettel. Which is why Ferrari fixed the wind tunnel, got the engine working, changed the technical staff, and they STILL can’t get within a second of Mercedes.

    The rest is just you rambling about stuff I don’t really understand. And most of it is the classic “Fan Boy” defense, when the facts don’t support your opinions. But the best thing about facts is that they are still there, even when your lies are disproven and forgotten.

  • Mohammed Nayeem

    haha… i must appreciate your love for Alonso… u deserve a round of applause.. what do you want everyone to say “Alonso is the best driver in the world or may be even in the universe as he is faster than aliens also… and he is the only racing driver there is F1… the other 21 are put there to just make up numbers.. and so it looks like it is a race…” Happy now??

    when drivers help input the team to develop cars, it happens over time.. if Alonso made ferrari to change the car to suit his style to make it end up like TRUCK… like he had mentioned once n got some whipping from his boss… and then you outscore ur team mate.. ur so stuck with the points in a dog of a car what was ruined in 5 yrs of a failed era.. if you think Massa had not made mistakes earlier in the year due to lack of self belief u need to go and revisit the facts urself.. let me tell u championship is not won if you win last race.. anyways.. i prefer debates, I am bad at arguing or mudslinging.. ur best at it.. u outscore anyone here with your blind following and twisted stories… best of luck mate..

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Haaaaaaa how is Kimi faster than Alonso. In what world? Do you know the stats? Alonso got 3 TIMES as many points as Kimi in the same car. Alonso outscored Massa every year they were together yet Massa was able to beat Kimi. And your joke that Massa never realized he could be champion? Were you not watching that season? Massa won the last race, that is the best he could have done. If Glock was not on slicks in the wet Massa would have won the WDC. How is that him losing because he didn’t believe in it? You are making up mumbo jumbo reasons to avoid looking at the factual data. That is delusional behavior.

    As for Crash Gate if you knew what that was about, it was Falvio trying to keep Renault in F1 by giving them a win, as they were thinking of pulling out. It wasn’t for Alonso. But Alonso won the following race without any help. Alonso won a lot of races without Nelson Piquet Jr. You want to go focus on that one moment? Crazy stuff. Non one even said that Alonso was involved in Crash Gate. He was involved in the Ferrari secret stealing at McLaren, and he reported that to the FIA. But not before he did get some benefit from it. So he did help cheating then. But in the end he reported it. But that does not affect his driving talent, that is an issue of character. Alonso has out driven Kimi and Massa, and they are able to run equal with Vettel. So it’s pretty clear who is the better driver between Vettel and Alonso. And Ferrari are just working that out now.

  • Mohammed Nayeem

    HAHA… non political?? ur seriously funny.. and too serious fan of a certain cry baby… Massa missed out on the championship is purely due to the fact that he never realized he could be a champion and ddnt have a certain team mate who could crash for him or didnt have Nelson as his team mate.. and look who is talking about crashgate.. 😀 Alonso needed his team mate to crash to benefit him.. there is nothing as low as that.. anyways.. I see no point to explain as you want it to be argument and you would blindly support a single driver.. intellectuals who know to debate are fun to discuss with.. FYI, I am not a fan of Massa or Kimi or even Hamilton.. you might hate Hamilton fans for he is a better driver than Alonso or you may hate Kimi fans for he is quicker than Alonso… best of luck mate.. I like racing skills of Alonso but I dont show down other drivers to support one..

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    I do my best to refer to actual events that can be proven outside of my words. Like when Max went down the inside of Kimi at Spa. Many said it was a crazy move against the rules. I posted a picture of Max beside Kimi 30 meters before the corner, with 2 car’s width gap between Kimi and the edge of the track. I posted the exact wording of the rules. I gave people the chance to fact check what I said.

    I look at statistics like Alonso’s points versus Kimi in the same car. Things that other people can check. That is the difference between a passionate and informed fan and a troll. When people say that Vettel smashed Webber I point out that Webber almost won the WDC against Vettel. Those people never respond to that comment, as the facts go against their agenda. Or when people say that Vettel won in a Toro Rosso. That was when the Toro Rosso and Red Bull shared a chassis, and the Ferrari engine was better than the Renault engine. And Vettel set his car up for the wet, which was a huge risk that those going for the WDC could not take. But Vettel fans hate these facts.

    One person got to the point where he said that Max was in the wrong against Kimi as his driving would be against future rules brought in to stop that type of driving. He then used this as the reason why Max was in the wrong. Future rules that don’t exist! I prefer to look at the reality as it is. When Charlie Whiting says publicly on TV that Max broke no rules, I believe that Max broke no rules. The trolls turn to non existent future rules to punish Max in the present.

    It takes a lot of work to not laugh at these people, and reply with facts, rather than comments like “What planet are you living on?” Or “What have you been smoking.” I appreciate that you can see the effort that I make to answer with independently provable facts, not insults. Sometimes I just let the insults out, as these people are too funny.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    HAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

    “Massa never saw himself as a lead driver or never had that inspiration, he was just too happy to be with Ferrari.”

    You mean when Massa out performed Kimi and was going for the world championship? And still considers himself to be WDC if it wasn’t for crash gate? Wow you can twist a story out of the air.

    I was talking about destroying in terms of POINTS in the WDC. Not in some other world that you make up where Alonso is political and that makes him get points.

    In terms of qualifying, Alonso SMASHED Massa and Kimi. Day in, day out, he out drove those two drivers. You can live in the dream world, I live in reality.

  • Pervez Rumi

    Well said, I like the way you reply calmly and have something worthy to say instead of trolling like many out there

  • Mohammed Nayeem

    wow… seems like you are a devoted Alonso fan.. When you say Alonso destroyed Kimi and Massa.. you are painstakingly wrong.. Massa never saw himself as a lead driver or never had that inspiration, he was just too happy to be with Ferrari.. Alonso on the other hand is more political and wants more attention given to him and to have developments brought in the car to suit his driving style… and with Ferrari having all hopes on Alonso as their number 1 did everything to make car suit him rather than trying to build or develop a better car.. As for Kimi, he isnt political at all and too strong in his head to be bothered about Alonso wanting the team to give him preferential treatment.. and since both have different driving styles and with pushrod/pullrod going away from Kimi.. there was the difference in the performance.. I remember with Alonso in Renault, Kimi in Mclaren, Schumi in Ferrari, It was more often Kimi who gave hard time to Schumi rather than Alonso.. not sure if you say which driver is better, it is based on what.. people like some drivers.. all drivers have shortcomings.. Alonso is a good driver and so is Kimi.. Some say Button was a lucky champion to have Brawn’s special Diffuser… the same button in the same car easily matches Alonso… Alonso’s understanding of F1 and racing is class and is one of the best… but when it comes to his politics… yeah.. not so appealing.. I like kimi for pure racing skills.. but I am more a fan of racing and not just blindly following any driver and just make up statements to support one driver over other…

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Oh so much BS. Alonso defended Ferrari for 5 years! Vettel said last week that he won’t commit his whole career to Ferrari. So you are delusional.

    And arguing that since Vettel has 4 WDC’s so he is better than Alonso is insanity. People used to say that about Lewis versus Vettel and likely next year they can’t say it.

    You have to be a deluded fan to talk about Vettel winning in a Toro Rosso, that year it was the same chassis as the red bull with a better engine.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    yes why would webber go to ferrari to play #2 to alonso when i he can have a hope at winning at redbull unlike if you race along side alonso you’d be asked to move over . Webber was the #2 at redbull but atleast he will not have to play some phycological game with vettel to win

    look its clear that you are a alonso fan and you refuse to see him in any other light than “oh his is the mighty alonso” . just accept the fact that alonso will never be more than what he is today and he failed with ferrari and just because you are butthurt that vettel has more championships than alonso.

    When the underdog (vettel) thrives everyone has a problem ,fact is Vettel is doing a better job at ferrari than alonso did . he is willing to defend the team without critisizing the team AND he does not think he is bigger than the team , he will not abandon the team at their lowest point (2014) and go to another team .

    only reason vettel had not won bellow qualifying P3 is cz he had a decent car and a car with a decent performance gap unlike now in a ferrari with worse aero than the force india and no devalopment since spain . And vettel is the only one to win in a freaking torro rosso so you cannot say he is “overated”

    When alonso has 4 championships we will talk . until then enjoy seeing him come P7 in a mclaren honda .

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Vettel was given the wing. He had the special engine. Those are NOT without evidence.

    Webber got $10m a year and stayed as he liked Dietrich Mateschitz. Webber was offered a Ferrari seat with Alonso and turned it down to stay true to Dietrich Mateschitz. Webber said this publicly, I am not making that up.

    Now you are using nebulous opinions about arrogance to attack Alonso. So pathetic. The facts are clear. the race data.

    Here is a good one. Alonso thrashed Massa and Kimi. Kimi was beaten by Massa over a season. Kimi is equal with Vettel. Pretty simple maths. So give up your story that Kimi is better than Massa. More BS from you ignoring the truth. Yawn.

    Alonso was qualifying in P5 and ending in P1, showing that the car was not that fast and his race craft was amazing. Vettel on the other hand, in all his years in F1 has NEVER won from better than P3 on the grid. Get that?

    Oh wait, what is your next story? Or can you just accept the facts?

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    Vettel was pretty much a rookie driver in redbull in 2010 compared to marks experience and vettel was far more clumsy in 2010 and yet he won , the whole thing about vettel having better parts is also WITHOUT evidence its just people with random conspiracy theories do you really think webber would race for redbull for 4 years knowing he has a weaker car and is not getting a fair shot ofc not

    Everybody knows how arrogant alonso is and lest not forget he has been involved in one of the worst scandals in F1 (crash gate) so dont pretend alonso is some “true champion” he did not archieve the sucess he did in a fair manner , even the 2 championships he won at renault he was with a weaker teamate and the top car .

    Alonso is no god as most of his fans potray him as . he is a gifted driver but he is not without his flaws . Alonso was fighting for P1 in a better car than what vettel has so you cannot compare . and was teamed up with massa , a driver who is not as quick as him . where as vettel is teamed up with raikkonen who is pretty quck and is capable of out performing vettel in several ocations unlike massa was .

    Vettel fights fr P3 in WDC cz more than in one ocation the team messed up his stragey and is driver a car which is weaker than the car alonso was driving .

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Webber was 15kg heavier that Vettel and in their first year he went into the last race with MORE points than Vettel. So Mark was able to race at the same pace as Vettel for the whole year. After that year there were hints that Vettel got better equipment. Singapore was a great example where the new engine with the “legal traction control” was only on Vettels’ car. The front wing was an obvious thing, but there can be many other performance items that only went on Vettels’ car that we were not able to see. So you are wrong again.

    You are again saying that Alonso put in less effort. You have NO EVIDENCE of this. Give it up. Your point is in your imagination not in reality. Alonso gave Ferrari 5 years. He was right to leave, they have gone backwards since he left. He was fighting for P1 in the WDC with Ferrari, and now Vettel is fighting for P4 with Kimi. He can’t even get to P3, that is how bad Ferrari have become.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    That is not true and I just explained that. The Ferrari was often qualifying in P5 or lower. Vettel at Ferrari has been higher than that many times in the last two years. You can keep up this story but it is proven wrong by facts. Let it go.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    the whole redbull thing i can agree on that abit , but the crashing into mark and mark getting the blame simply is not true none of them were blamed it was just left as a mistake by both of them . mark did not get punnished by the team for it or anythng

    only time the preference for vettel was shown was when vettel took the updated wing in the british gp i think and mark hd the old one and he went and won that race and said not bad fr #2

    That really is not vettel’s fault thats just the team and its politics . just like at ferrari with alonso and massa . massa was always overshadowed by alonso and team mistreated massa .

    end of the day massa isnt as a great driver as alonso was and webber wasnt as good as vetttel so thats y the teams picked the #1

    Alonso’s is a better driver than vettel i’ll admit that , he has more experience and more natural talent BUT he is not the god that most ppl potray him as .. only reason he beat kimi was kimi was kimi did not to the 2014 car like how vettel coulnt and gt beaten by riciardo . does not mean he is less of a driver . Alonso just was not patient enough with ferrari and did not put in as much effort as vettel is doing now with ferrari he just showed up expecting for great results got frustrated and left

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    yes that is because alonso’s ferrari at the time in terms of performace difference to the redbulls were not as big as it is now with vettels ferrrari and the mercs , and this year mostly the team messed up his strategy aswell . i think its unfair to compare alonso’s ferrari performance to vettels ferrari performance for now because the performance gap to the “top car” ws different

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    In terms of relative performance, no, you are wrong. Alonso was often qualifying in 5th place and still winning races. Vettel was able to qualify in 3rd place many times in the last two years.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    Basically everything you said here is wrong.

    Vettel in Spa last weekend made a beginner’s mistake turning in on Kimi on the opening corner, not even looking right to see where Kimi was – right beside him but at the apex, unsurprisingly.

    There was a race in Singapore when Vettel was leading and everyone was behind the safety car. When the safety car pulled away Vettel was 2 seconds ahead of everyone else after a few corners. It was insane how great his car was compared to everyone else.

    Alonso left Ferrari before they fixed their wind tunnel, got rid of Fry and brought in Allison. They also got rid of their pull rod steering. Now they are said to have an engine close to the Mercedes in power. Yet Vettel is still being beaten regularly in a way that Alonso wasn’t.

    There is so much evidence that Alonso works like crazy on the car, just as hard as Vettel. He was never just a guy who turned up and didn’t care. Look at how he destroyed Kimi and Massa.

    Mark was asked to give performance parts to Vettel, and Vettel could ignore team orders and never get punished. Vettel could crash into Mark and the team would blame Mark. It was so bad that Mark said over the radio “not bad for a number 2.” That race when Vettel pulled over 2 seconds a lap on everyone else, his car sounded strange like he had an engine trick to give him traction control. Mark’s car didn’t have that sound, and he was not able to pull away like Vettel. That is an example of how the team supported Vettel.

    Only once was Massa asked to move over for Alonso as Alonso was stuck behind him, but able to drive faster. Once Massa moved over Alonso sped off up the road. So he WAS faster than Massa.

    So all of the facts point to the opposite of what you said.

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    alonso had a better ferrari than vettels ferrari (his 2010 ,2011,2012&2013 ferrari was alot better in performance compared to vettels ferrari of 2015 and 2016 )

  • Ion Gordun

    Alonso had a better car than Vettel? That is a joke, right?

  • Rupert Chandler

    Alonso, twice!!

    Great Enstone car, well run team, but not the best car..

  • Dave Domenicano

    That would be awesome! The one with the biggest balls gets Pole…

  • Dave Domenicano

    Go Go Kimi !!!!!!!

  • Dakshan Wijesinghe

    Vettel is no “lucky champion” sure he may not have as much natural talent as alonso , lewis or even kimi but as i have noticed over the years from 2008 to now he has devaloped as a driver , he is more of a hardworker than a natural which to me is more of a champion than a guy who just shows up and delivers . his driving is getting more flawless he may not how the ut right speed that alonso has but he is a smarter driver and alonso had a better ferrari than what seb has now so ofc he is gng to win and the performance gap was not as big as it is to mercedes now back then the ferrari’s could still match redbull (except in 2013) . you cannot say vettel is a good #2 driver or a “lucky champion” he worked for those , say what you will about the politics in redbull but mark waas never asked to move over fr vettel to win unline wht happend to massa with alonso . these days his driving is more mediocre than usual but i guess that is down to the car and ofc we all know how quick kimi is so no surprise there .

  • Fly_Dog

    Prost 1986. Possibly Hakkinen 1999.

    F1 needs to get back to having more than one team as championship contenders, preferably 3 or more.

  • z kulinski

    Please name a single world champion that did not have the best car.

  • Risto Ressu Lusua

    Well said

  • Alohakakahiaka

    I Agree.

  • Leonardo Pisano Bigollo

    For four years loads of F1 fans said that Vettel was overrated and won his 4 WDC’s because of his car and his team’s preference to him over Webber (plus Webber being 15kg heavier). A lot of educated F1 fans said that Alonso was a much better driver. Then Vettel met an equally sized Dan Ricciardo who had Marko support and Vettel was beaten hands down. So what did Ferrari expect when they got him? A true champion like Alonso, or a lucky champion?

    Kimi struggled last year with the car’s front end, but a move to a push rod suspension fixed that. Now Kimi is close to Vettel in performance. Last year Vettel got about twice the points of Kimi. Contrast that to Alonso getting almost 3 times the points of Kimi in the same car.

    So it doesn’t take much to work out that Vettel is a good #2 driver who had the best car for four years. A Nico Rosberg, not a Lewis Hamilton or a Fernando Alonso. And now Ferrari have to deal with that mistake. At Ferrari Alonso won races he should not have won. Vettel loses races he should have won. Simple.

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